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Author Topic: Defending Your Position  (Read 113 times)

Offline Tech G

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Defending Your Position
« on: May 28, 2017, 11:59:39 pm »
Hi Guys,

So one of the other leagues I raced with had a very helpful discussion on racing and sim racing etiquette when it comes to defending your position and it turns out a lot of people had different ideas on this.  As there are some new drivers here I thought it would be interesting to post a few article links here.  In sim racing this is particularly important, as we don't have much the peripheral vision.  So if you believe another car is pulling up along side you, hold your line, do not cut across them or make a late move.

Blocking vs Defending
Defending is putting your car in an area that makes the opponent have to take the longer/slower line. You can move offline to cover the inside, and if your opponent is clear, move back to the racing line.

Blocking is moving in such a way where your opponent has to slow down or otherwise react to not cause a collision.  Late moves as someone is about to pull along side you or in the braking zone is blocking.

The idea is to make sure all action on track is clean and incident free, so sudden movements or quick lane changes, while other cars are around you, increases the chance of an incident.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAdn4g6Ga8A&app=desktop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnnR6ubhrHg









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Offline Chad Brown

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 12:08:18 am »
Thanks for the post Tech.

Offline Tig_green

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 07:15:19 am »
Good videos, thanks.

I don't totally agree with some of the situations in the first video where there wasn't double line change. For example situation seen in 5:45 was pretty ok to me. He started braking after he changed his line so the car behind could have change his line to inside or backed off more imo but was too stubborn to do it. Sure you need to be careful in those situations as a car in front. But defending should be something else too than the obvious choose inside/outside in the middle of a straight, IMO.

Video number 2 highlights the right to defend but not dangerously of course.

Both the car in front and the following car has resposibility to ensure clean racing. Ramming someone from behind when you know he is going to defend (use his one move while your aren't beside him) isn't cool either.

-Matt
In order to win you need to be willing to roll the dice.
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Offline Tech G

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2017, 03:09:11 pm »
I don't totally agree with some of the situations in the first video where there wasn't double line change. For example situation seen in 5:45 was pretty ok to me. He started braking after he changed his line so the car behind could have change his line to inside or backed off more imo but was too stubborn to do it. Sure you need to be careful in those situations as a car in front. But defending should be something else too than the obvious choose inside/outside in the middle of a straight, IMO.
-Matt

Thanks for the comments guys and I am glad these videos are useful. 

It is worth having the discussion, so we can try to agree what the right approach is.   In the particular situation you mentioned Matt, I agree that this one is a little grey area, but if you notice the Mclaren starts to drift back on to the racing line but leaves a little gap on the outside, then as they brake and the guy behind goes into that gap, the Mclaren drifts slightly further forcing him more off.  This is what I don't think is ok.  The Mclaren should have made his intention clear and gone all the way outside in the first place not keep drifting, but the guy behind should also have thought that gap is to small and backed off

Pretty much everyone agrees you can make one defensive move, or get in a defensive position, then only move back to the racing line if it is safe to do so, without causing the guy behind to have to take any avoiding action.  As one of the drivers said don't be a moving chicane, drifting around and making defensive moves to late, does not prompt safe, fast and close racing.

 
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Offline Tig_green

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 09:11:08 am »
I don't totally agree with some of the situations in the first video where there wasn't double line change. For example situation seen in 5:45 was pretty ok to me. He started braking after he changed his line so the car behind could have change his line to inside or backed off more imo but was too stubborn to do it. Sure you need to be careful in those situations as a car in front. But defending should be something else too than the obvious choose inside/outside in the middle of a straight, IMO.
-Matt

Thanks for the comments guys and I am glad these videos are useful. 

It is worth having the discussion, so we can try to agree what the right approach is.   In the particular situation you mentioned Matt, I agree that this one is a little grey area, but if you notice the Mclaren starts to drift back on to the racing line but leaves a little gap on the outside, then as they brake and the guy behind goes into that gap, the Mclaren drifts slightly further forcing him more off.  This is what I don't think is ok.  The Mclaren should have made his intention clear and gone all the way outside in the first place not keep drifting, but the guy behind should also have thought that gap is to small and backed off

Pretty much everyone agrees you can make one defensive move, or get in a defensive position, then only move back to the racing line if it is safe to do so, without causing the guy behind to have to take any avoiding action.  As one of the drivers said don't be a moving chicane, drifting around and making defensive moves to late, does not prompt safe, fast and close racing.

 

I agree that the leading car could have moved more to the right. There is another thing here that happened that is against the ethics of clean racing imo: the following car knew he carries more speed because of the draft so he should have braked earlier once the car in front started his defensive move by moving to the right. This also applies is you share the same line with a car which you know has a earlier braking point than you or you don't know his braking point. Any of that rear bumping is nasty.
In order to win you need to be willing to roll the dice.

Offline Tech G

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2017, 03:22:01 pm »
Just bumping this post for the start of the new season, I for one can't wait  ;D

Guiga

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 04:34:56 pm »
Moving back over to the line despite being the lead car, and braking almost immediately is not cool. The chasing car has its line and braking points worked out, they could even be planning to brake later and do an undercut. The chasing car is forced to brake reacting to the car or change its line.

The onus to keep things clean is still a little on the chasing car in this situation. You can flick it to the inside as the car ahead moves over, and beat them on braking. But speaking from experience, the wandering to-be-passed person will turn normally into the corner as if they're alone because they'll also have little time to react and check their surroundings, and will hit the passing car.

What I like to do if being chases is keep to the middle of the track. Never commit much one way or another. I work out the possible lines and actions the chasing car may take and my middle-ish positioning reflects that and the next set of corners. Then I simply don't move at all, and brake in a straight line, not doing it early nor overshooting the corner. Of course you're still susceptible to the other person lacking race craft and collecting you for a variety of reasons, but they'll be at fault.

Where Tom, H2H, and I often raced, we would get a revolving collection of guys (admins, regulars, one-offers) just missing awareness and racecraft, and being a massive nuisance to the couple of serious guys. Nice videos to share, by the way!

ps: The above statements don't always apply to go-karting. :-P

Offline Ibby

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2017, 05:41:45 am »
As a relative newbie I'm starting to learn a bit more about this sim racing thing. I have an opinion to share on defending and racing in general.
At the beginning, I always wanted to drive the "perfect" line and thought that would keep me going the fastest and give me the best chance of best position in the race. But after I unintentionally cut someone off in a corner, I realize that's not the best way to "play". You see, afterward, I felt like **** that I had just bumped someone off the track. And it could just have easily gone the other way, and I could have been shunted into the dirt. Either of those situations results in the same outcome... no more racing with that guy! I'm starting to learn that the alternative of seeing someone behind you trying to pass, and leaving room on the inside of the turn in case they try a pass, leads to a lot more enjoyment! Sure, you are no longer on the best line and will end up slowing and giving your opponent an even better chance to pass you. But it will be a clean pass that will be exhilarating for both of you! And if everyone plays this way, there will be lots of safe overtaking back and forth and a really exciting, fun race!
Chad really likes people to "blog" about their race afterward in the forums. From reading everyone's posts I observe that any time there is an incident people feel terrible about it. I also observe that once someone's closest competitor has come off track, the other guy's blog goes something like "it was a great race until my opponent got bumped off. Then it was a LONELY BORING drive to the finish line." The idea is to have fun. And for most people that means as much close wheel to wheel action as you can get. The safer we are and the more room we leave for each other, the more close action we all get!

Okay, opinion over. I'll go back to being a backmarker and mowing the grass now. :-)

Paul (Ibby) Ibbotson
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Offline Chad Brown

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2017, 06:16:48 am »
Paul, a very astute observation. A lonely race is a boring race. You are, at that point, racing against the track and your own time. The best races I have had have not resulted in me taking a podium or win. They have been the races that give me the most wheel to wheel action against a similarly skilled opponent. For me the best racing is the racing I get when I am close to someone an there is drama and skill necessary to keep in proximity to someone else while going fast as possible. I believe most of the membership here believes this as well. I hope we can get more close racing at the front of the field so guys like Mike F and Scott can have that type of race more often.
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Offline Tech G

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2017, 07:25:13 pm »
I'm starting to learn that the alternative of seeing someone behind you trying to pass, and leaving room on the inside of the turn in case they try a pass, leads to a lot more enjoyment! 
Paul (Ibby) Ibbotson

I totally agreed Paul, sim racing is not like regular racing due to glitches that can happen when there is contact or lag.  It's always best for the guy in front to make their intention clear and the guy behind to do the same, so both can enjoy the close racing.  If in doubt always leave room.  I also learned that early in a race if the guy behind is obviously faster than you, it is often better to let them pass and then follow them which magically make you faster, so less chance of the rest of the field catching, as defending only slows you both down ;D.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 01:00:16 am by Tech G »
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Online red bullet

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Re: Defending Your Position
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2017, 07:49:21 pm »
Yep, racing alone with no one around is just boring hotlapping. Having an opponent around makes you faster and also more consistent or at least more stress-resistant.
Lapping should be done in all fairness so all of us have a good time. And if he's way faster, you might learn something. That how I improved in karting (indoor). First you try to follow them for 1 corner, then for 2... Only difference here is the set-up, which might make it hard to follow someone.

 

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